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Transcript

PB: Welcome to KWIB Radio. Today we are lucky to be joined by Susannah Schofield, OBE. Hi, Susannah.

SS: Hello Paul.

PB: Today we’re going to be talking about sales and all things sales. Susannah is the Director General of the Direct Selling Association (DSA). Author of the business strategy book “Mind the Gap” and former Sales Director of Royal Mail. Susannah, where do I start with you? You’re very energetic as a person and a leader. Is this reflective of your youth? Were you a disruptive person, challenging the status quo?

SS: I’m sure my parents will say ‘yes!’. Do you know, I think I had a great upbringing in that both my parents always said “Challenge”. Not beyond conformity but actually to question things, ask things, learn things so I think that from a very young age, I was quite inquisitive and have remained that way. As you know, I don’t sleep a great deal – I have an awful lot of energy and as a result of that I think I probably try and fit too much into a day than I actually should but I just enjoy it. It’s fantastic and my dad will definitely say that I’ve been difficult to handle.

PB: So you’d like to invent a 36 hour day?

SS: Well, I’d like to and what I find now is that working a little bit with America, you can almost do that as when you think there’s no more time, you can find a completely different time zone so you can expand your day…

PB: On the personal side for a moment, you were the victim of an abusive relationship early on in your life. Are you able to share what you went through, how you came out the other side and how this changed you as a person?

SS: Yes… I never mean to sound flippant about this but for me I think it is ‘whatever doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger’. I think for me it’s the challenge that actually it wasn’t my fault; it wasn’t anything I’d done. I had a really amazing family upbringing, a really stable setting and two parents who deeply love each other (they’ve just celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary). I think I was lucky to know what good looked like and what normal relationships look like. When I found myself in something that wasn’t normal and didn’t feel right, it was easy to say that ‘actually this isn’t right and this isn’t who I want to be.’ He was much older than me and I was much younger and I think there was some naivety on my part as to ever really getting involved. It was a case of saying ‘no, this isn’t who I want to be and I’m not going to let it define me.’ It’s great now being able to work with women who are/who have suffered similar experiences and often in a far greater context. To see them get confidence back and to really talk to them to give them strength to know that it is not their fault is amazing. No-one deserves to be treated poorly. No-one gets up in the morning to deliberately upset someone else or to do a bad day’s work or whatever. It was important for me to dust myself off and get on. I’m a big believer in – and I know it’s not right for everyone – but I believe if you have a cut and it heals, don’t keep scratching it as you’ll just make it bleed again. I don’t like to rake it up and it’s something that’s done; it’s made me stronger and it’s probably made me more determined and independent. I have the most amazing husband now. I’ve had some great relationships before him (although he probably doesn’t want to hear that!!) I’ve got two lovely girls who are fantastic. I think that it’s a big learning curve and it has enabled me to help empower other women who have found themselves in that situation which I’m delighted to have been able to do.

PB: So, you got through it and it helped you be stronger. Did you take some of that into your career? Did it help push you on?

SS: Yes, I think it did a bit… When you take control of your life, you can then go on and do things. I think when you say ‘no, actually I don’t want to be in this relationship anymore; it’s not what I want to be part of’, then you become in control of your own destiny. You can define who you want to be and once you listen to that song… I don’t know if you can rememberAlly McBeal? … well they had a running theme music through her and sometimes I say to the girls when they are looking a bit a sad, to sing a happy song to get your motivation going, to get your song going through you. It really does work – if you put on a sad face, you feel sad. If you put on a happy face, you instantly feel better. It is putting on a good mantra and getting on with it. It definitely made me more determined – more determined to take control and make use of the time I have and to not let anything stand in the way.

PB: I read that one of your first jobs was working in a call centre. Was it a good learning curve for future roles?

SS: Yes – I learnt tolerance and, gosh, when I look back now, it was when bullying in the workplace was almost acceptable. People were still smoking at their desks when I very first started – only just… it was being phased out… It was an incredible environment where people could just get shouted at. If you didn’t do your job properly, you were told off in front of other people and your peers. There would be white boards where people would write on where people had failed to reach their targets and you’d have to justify why you hadn’t hit it. It was a very strange environment and very high pressured; you had to do a certain number of calls per minute and a certain number of connections. We’d have what was called “talk time” where if you didn’t have an active line for a certain amount of time where you were talking to people, then you would be reprimanded. Sometimes you would even get your pay docked, not your bonus – your actual pay would be docked. Obviously that is totally unacceptable now but I think it almost gave me a hardened steel. When I went on to manage my first sales force, I definitely looked back on the mantra of ‘every NO is closer to a YES’. It’s very easy in sales when everyone is saying ‘no’ to find yourself on a downward spiral but if every ‘no’ is a step closer to that eventual ‘yes’ then it puts a more positive spin on it. I’ve always been a ‘glass half full’ person as those who know me can confirm (and there’s always room for more wine!) I think that set me up well and I came out of my first job with very little expectation around what my second would hold.

PB: I would imagine that such a sales regime could lead to bad selling though with all that pressure to make a sale at any cost?

SS: It does. I look now at my time at Royal Mail and it was all about listening to the customer; it was all about finding out what the customer needed. It was about longevity and nurturing that relationship. It still is because if you have a good customer, it is so much easier to retain than to go out and acquire especially given the crowded marketplace that is social media and advertising. It absolutely taught me that that isn’t the way to sell. People come back because of the good experience they had, because of the quality products and because whatever it is you deliver, we are so much more savvy now. Gone are the days of ‘I’ve got a block ad in a newspaper; do you want to buy it”. It was incredibly transactional but there just wasn’t the opportunity to market any other way. You either bought the newspaper or you didn’t. In my early days at Royal Mail, if I’m honest, it was very much similar. It was a monopoly and very much, ‘if you want to post it, you’ll have to post it with us or don’t post it.’ Over time, you could start to see competition open up and the world change. All of a sudden, a letter wasn’t necessary, the fax machine would be the death of us but we lived through that. Then email was going to be the death of us but the internet just opened up parcel delivery. There was always this evolution – almost a revolution – as to how things changed and I think that will continue. The way that you sell has to be so much more savvy and customer is king.

PB: You mentioned Royal Mail where you worked for over 18 years and a key role while working there was the direct responsibility for the sales team of 300, delivering £290m in new revenue. Tell us a bit about the challenges you faced, especially as the youngest female appointed director.

SS: I look back on my time at the Royal Mail with the deepest passion: it was just amazing and I think that almost 19 years there is an incredibly long time but that actually I had such a fluid career there that I did so many things there; working in their marketing team to working in the post office to working in the parcel distribution… It was such an enormous wealth of experience. It was like changing jobs every couple of years but under one big umbrella and I was incredibly lucky to do that. I think that for me, my proudest moment is growing that sales force. We started with three people and it was a really different way of looking at it. Competition was coming in, we didn’t know how to defend ourselves against it, we were losing huge swathes of business to people who were looking after the customer better than we were. All of a sudden we had to pull ourselves together and think right, what are we offering and how do we sell direct mail as a medium to market. How do we turn that communication into something that is a sales tool for our clients – business to business or business to consumer – and how also do we win back some of that parcel traffic. We set up with three people and, as you say, and had just shy of 300 by the time we finished on the direct sales force just selling new business. The target also went up – I think our first target was £0.5 million brand to new traded revenue through the door every year of £300million. If someone asked me if I’d want to do it now, I think I’d panic and say that there’s no way I could grow from three to three hundred but actually watching it grow organically and putting in the KPIs, the quotas and the targets, working with people and having that really lovely moment of motivating a sales force. I think the biggest achievement was having that understanding and the moment the penny drops of when you have a layered team, that when you sit up in your ivory tower and give instructions to the next level down of what you want to deploy that by the time it gets to the front line, all the enthusiasm that you have has been lost. Nobody wants to deploy it for you – it’s just another thing from up top. Also, when it’s rubbish on the front line and it filters back up the line, everyone softens it so that by the time it gets back to the top, you never really hear the truth. I think for me, it was so important to understand that the thinner you can keep an organisation, the less layers of management you have, and the more you encourage everyone to work together and all of their key performance targets are kept together and correlated so that one doesn’t achieve without everybody, then that makes a much better sales force. The more you can pull everyone together and create that almost osmosis like effect of almost a community, then I think that you can make a really great place to work and I think that having started it, I was lucky enough to bring that through. When I left, nicely a lot of my management team cried, so I think that is always a good sign – cry with sadness, not happiness! I’ve kept in touch with lots of them since so I think that is a good legacy to have.

PB: It sounds as if you had to define a new way of selling for Royal Mail because of the competition and the fact you didn’t have a monopoly anymore which sounds like a challenge in the first place before you even get to selling?

SS: Absolutely and lots of sales training and working with people supported by great motivational coaches over the time. Mike Finnigan who is renowned for the sports world is fantastic and he came in and did a huge tranche of work with us. We set up something called the Sales Academy which was quite literally just training people in new business. They joined the business as we grew and we took them to a management centre in a Royal Mail building in Rugby at the time and they were there for a week or two weeks and we would submerse them the customer journey. It wasn’t about learning about products and what the products did, but more about the importance of learning where the customer journey was and how we could add value to the growth of their business. How we could look at their sector and give them either insight or information around how to sell direct or who was using parcels or mail as a marketing tool so that it could work for them. It was a very different way of doing it but we came out the other end and they are still going strong now.

PB: It sounds an interesting way of working. You must have learnt a great deal and you do help business start-ups. Can you tell us about this work and your work with the Peter Jones Enterprise Academy?

SS: I love this. Nothing enthuses me more than someone who has a good idea and just wants to make it come alive. I feel passionately about helping people do that right up to mid-growth. I think for the Dice Matrix side of the business, we specialise in the £5-£15m companies but my real passion is that real start up. How do you make business – how do you go out and tell people where you are and shout about what you do? I think that’s why I got involved in the Peter Jones Foundation a couple of years ago now and I loved it. Rather than putting people through an education programme in a school environment, he empowered kids leaving to do an apprenticeship scheme by setting up micro-businesses. They actually set up a proper business, registered it and did the P&L, VAT (if it was applicable) and they went out and traded. Being able to hold the hands of people who are new to an environment is just lovely.Where it is so nice is that if you come from a company like Royal Mail where often the phrase is ‘we’ve tried it before and it didn’t work’ or ‘we’ve seen it before, nothing’s new’, you can get very automated by the 500 years of legacy of the business. The ability to go in where it is all fresh faced and nobody says it will never work, there’s always something new. They don’t have the negativity. It is almost a naïve optimism which I love as so much of it goes on to deliver so much to the economy, but only because they’ve given it a go and done it slightly differently than someone else and that makes them stand out from the crowd. So, yes, very fond memories of working with the Peter Jones Foundation but I now still work with lots of universities and talk a lot with young kids saying to them to just get out there and give it a go.

PB: It must be reinvigorating for yourself seeing people who are enthusiastic as we can all get a bit stale sometimes.

SS: It does and I like to think it keeps me young – not visually – but emotionally and mentally! I think that just watching people is fantastic and now I have the best of both worlds with the Director General hat on for the DSA, I get to see hundreds if not thousands of people starting their business journey every day. That’s fantastic because the ability of watching people set themselves up and go out to market maybe with a product that it the same as someone else but doing it so differently and individually to their friends, family and people they know, it is lovely to watch. As much as you can advise, it Is down to the individuals and the amount of hard work and effort they want to put in. It doesn’t just have to be the young: so many people have left the corporate world and said ‘actually I’m going to do something that I want’. It’s the enthusiasm and I’m a believer that if you can make your passion your pay check, it will work. The minute you end up doing something that you don’t want to do, then not only do you become miserable, but you don’t represent the company or the product well. I’ve been very lucky in that I’ve always managed to find something that I enjoyed and never more so than now. That’s my mantra – make your passion your pay check and it doesn’t feel like you have to work.

PB: That’s good advice. A little bird told me you’ve done some direct selling yourself. How did that go for you and what did you learn?

SS: Do you know, it’s hard! It can be quite tough actually but I’m a big believer that if you’re going to represent something, then you have to get out there and do it. I’ve been to lots of parties of late with all our direct sales organisation members at DSA. I’ve dabbled and it is tough, but starting any business can be hard but as long as you believe in the product and as long as you put the effort in and really go out there and try, then nothing ventured, nothing gained. It’s the Dr Pepper advert isn’t it – ‘what’s the worst that can happen?’ I love that and think that’s the way to go. I also think it’s about trying different things and learning to potentially fail fast. So if you try something and it doesn’t work, then don’t keep trying it in the same way – maybe try it with a different angle or nuance, through a different media or whatever it is, keep changing and monitoring what it is that works. When you find that sweet spot for you, then absolutely then push that. It is that learning that you’re not going to get it right first time. It doesn’t mean that you’re not going to get it right –just not the first time and you may have to try slightly differently.

PB: You’ve recently been appointed Director General of the Direct Selling Association. What do you hope to deliver in your tenure there.

SS: For me, sector reputation is crucial. The organisations that are members of the DSA are the regulated bodies. They are absolutely a triumph of what this industry should bring out. I’m absolutely passionate about the opportunity that this delivers for so many people and the money it puts on the bottom line economy for the UK.It’s a great opportunity and for those listening that don’t necessarily know, our members include Body Shop At Home, Neal’s Yard, Arbonne, Amway, Avon, Forever Living, Juice Plus… we have some amazing organisations – obviously Avon is probably the most iconic brand – 60 years in the UK this year. It enables people to go and reach out and sell the product they want to from a myriad of selections direct to their friends and family. They can almost effectively set up their own business without having to physically manufacture something. So – self-employed, work as many hours as you want selling what you love to sell to whoever you want to. Where I think it has been interesting and where the next year for my tenure will be is to open those doors to use social media to help do this. We are social people and we like experiences so that direct sales is actually becoming social selling. It becomes the ability to use different media channels to go out and push it out to people and to talk about it. I’ve seen some great blogs go on where people do shows on how to use the make-up. There are some great cleaning products out there that could be used to show how to clean professionally. It is such a lovely way of doing it and Vorwerk and Salad Master have the most amazing cooking appliances and they do cooking demos to show it all – it’s just fantastic. I think for me it is utilising our changing world to maximise the opportunity for people. Essentially, though for the economy, it is important.

PB: For those old enough like me, they might remember the “Ding, dong, Avon Calling” advert. The industry is a lot more dynamic now but that must be part of the challenge to address perhaps a misconception as to what the industry does?

SS: It’s interesting that you should say that because for me, you say Avon and I say Tupperware. When people ask ‘what’s a direct sales organisation?’, then I’ll say Tupperware but sadly Tupperware doesn’t exist in the UK anymore, it’s only in America, although I am starting a “bring back the burp” campaign if you want to join me! As so much time is now spent around looking after our food, saving food waste etc I think Tupperware is amazing and we should definitely revive it. It is almost that retro moment where we say ‘Oh my mum made money out of Tupperware, I’d love to do something like that’. For the last 15, 20 or 30 years, and certainly for my career, we’ve been incredibly office based. Even 10 years ago, we were talking about location independent working and fluidity but It wasn’t really real. Now I think it is real. I think people actually do want that portfolio career. I’m probably one of the last generation where my dad said you get a job, buy a house, pay the mortgage and stick at the job until you’ve paid the mortgage when you can then go off and do crazy things. With the young generation coming up now, Generation Z, they are never going to be able to afford to buy a house, so actually, they’ll spend six months here, then go off for six months. They might spend 5 months living somewhere and then decide to go off again. More and more rental companies are reporting shorter and shorter lease requirements because people have less. They don’t need to move around huge amounts of photographs and big albums as it’s all on their phones or in the cloud. We’re so much more nomadic now than before. This level of having the career and the different bits of being able to sell something that’s fluid is just a great opportunity. Your right, the heritage is I think what makes this industry so amazing because it’s lovely to look back. At the DSA, we have a hall of fame where there are some people who’ve worked in the industry for 50 or 60 years who from the ‘get-go’ have been part of this but who are now giving their advice on how to do it for the next generation and how different it looks from ringing the doorbell, dropping a magazine through, to now doing it all digitally. I think that gives us some of our amazing foundations and why 2019 will be an interesting year.

PB: You will be well placed for the next generation because social media, communities and friends amplifying your message is probably a great way for the sector to work.

SS: Absolutely. You’re spot on. It’s those moments of it being so much easier now than going and knocking on doors and having to walk down a road and physically having to do it. You can talk to and engage with people and look through your community. One of the ladies that works locally around here for one of our member companies actually goes to the rugby club and when all the mums are standing round inside while the men are outside cheering the boys on, she’s inside going through what she’s got. That’s not sexist at all as she’s selling makeup where it is predominantly women looking at it. It’s really interesting to see as, for her, it’s Saturday morning and a great way to get friends together. It is just so different; it’s that so many people do it in so many different ways and I love that.

PB: For our listeners who might not be aware, I did hear some amazing stats as to what the direct selling sector does for the UK economy.

SS: Yes – so we’ve got about 425,000 consultants or distributors out there which is amazing. Obviously I’d like to see it grow up to 2million if I’m honest and I think that’s perfectly achievable over the next couple of years. We contribute over £2billion of revenue to the bottom line of the UK which is fantastic. And the average person earns around £373 per month. That’s not huge but these are part-time jobs and a nice way of getting an extra income. We read some sensational stories and the Cambridge 1:1 Diet, which is one of our members, has been recognised by the organisation this year as they’ve turned their first year at £2million. There is money out there but that is a full-time job – it’s a mother and daughter working together and they both own their houses outright. It is a lovely story and a great way for mother and daughter to work together but it is an effort based business. So if you just want to do it on a very part-time basis and work a couple of hours a week, then actually putting £100 in your pocket for a couple of hours work is a nice way of socialising and getting people together and earning a bit of money for holiday, petrol or those things at the end of the month you say you can’t believe you need to find money for.

PB: That must keep you busy but if that wasn’t enough, you do a lot of public speaking including appearing on BBC Radio Kent. How rewarding do you find this?

SS: I love it… I really love it! I think the nicest thing about public speaking – and I spoke recently at a franchise conference for Heart beeps, a couple of weeks ago – is that you can look around a room full of franchisees and every now and then see that you’ve turned a light on in someone’s head and you can see them thinking that ‘that’s a good idea, I can go and do that!’. I think that the inspirational – or rather just motivational – aspect is such an amazing thing. When people come up to you afterwards to say thank you and that they’ve taken something away from what you’ve said. I genuinely, genuinely love speaking. I speak on some serious topics as well – it’s not all motivational. Sometimes it can be quite hard delivering change management messages and those sorts of things which aren’t quite as much fun. But I love the radio show. This sort of thing is great – I’ve got two small children so when someone says come and speak it’s lovely because I’m guaranteed to get a word in uninterrupted!

PB: You’ve spoken at some events for sectors which may be considered as male dominated, such as the legal sector for example. How do you find talking at those events? Is there a difference – do you tailor the message or not?

SS: I think so and for me, it always depends on topic. So if it is a serious topic, and it is about strategy and growth then I’ll tend to slow the tempo down. It tends to be much more formal and the presentation will be more formal. If it’s about motivation then it’s more ‘rah-rah’ and you lift the tempo up and you’re more enthusiastic. Gender interestingly isn’t key, it’s always knowing the topic. I would never get on stage without doing some form of research and really understanding it. The other thing I would never do is to speak about something I don’t agree with. I’ve been asked a couple of times to give talks around specific areas and it’s something where my viewpoint doesn’t go down that route and then I don’t want to because I think that to be a good public speaker, you have to be passionate about your topic. For me, it’s not who the organisation is or what the crowd is but it’s almost the message you are being asked to deliver. If you can see in that that it is something you feel confident about and know the topic, then you will end up giving a good speech.

PB: So you’re saying that gender’s irrelevant, it’s about engagement.

SS: Absolutely. And I believe that across all walks of life.

PB: In 2015 you were awarded an OBE. When you received the letter in the post, it must have been a really proud moment to be recognised for your achievements. How did it feel?

SS: Do you know, it was amazing and I was very surprised. I honestly had absolutely no idea so when we got the letter and I opened it up, I thought I was in trouble. It was that moment of thinking “uh oh, what have I done? This looks very formal…stamped by the Cabinet Office” My husband said, you’ve been paying VAT haven’t you?! And I said, yes why as it looked very formal. It was a lovely surprise and it was amazing. I think what’s nice is to be recognised – it was awarded for services to small business, women and young people in business. They are probably the three things that I feel really passionate about – helping people start businesses and grow them; helping women into work and helping young people up on to the career ladder. To be recognised for that is fantastic and it was a lovely day out. The legacy since then is quite important to me as well. I do give a lot of my time to go and speak to people, both at universities, educationally and up on stage as we were talking about. I do a lot of that so that I can put back in and help motivate people and drive them on to achieve something. It’s been fantastic and It’s not something I’ll ever get to do again. I’ve got all those great memories to bank – opening the letter, when it was announced on New Year’s Eve and the look on my dad’s face with his teary eyes at his element of pride. I’ve only just hung it in the hall. We went to an event recently where I saw someone had their certificate and MBE up and I thought I need to do that for mine! I’ve just had it framed by a dear friend who did it for me and we’ve just hung it. It’s nice to walk past it every now and again and think “Ah, that’s nice”. It’s lovely to be recognised but that’s not why you do it but it is very, very nice.

PB: I think it’s right when you say that there is a legacy about being a role model for people to look up to and aspire to.

SS: Yes, totally and I think that’s a responsibility that comes with it. It’s not just “oh that’s lovely, thanks very much and stick it in a drawer”. There are moments when if you can share your experiences and what drove you to do it and, somehow, as you say, that you can become some sort of role model for someone else to get out of bed for, then I’ve always said that I’m quite happy to metaphorically put on my running shoes on and run with anyone who wants to put their shoes on. But if you just want to sit and watch day time TV, then that’s fine too but you probably don’t need to listen to me!

PB: It must have been a great day at the Palace – what was it like?

SS: Fantastic! You get to take 3 guests with you so my two young girls came, one donning a tiara and my husband came. Prince Charles presented my award. You get to go into the quadrangle and you see all the changing of the guards and you get to go into Buckingham Palace. You get presented with your award and then you come out and get to have a good look around. It is amazing and absolutely fantastic. I kept saying to the girls who were very young at the time to take it all in as we’d probably never get back in again. Then we met my parents and I’ll never forget my dad’s face peering through the bars as we walked across the quadrangle at Buckingham Palace. We then walked through Green Park and had lunch at The Ritz which was a real treat and one of those days that you’ll never get to do again. We took the girls and had some photographs taken which was lovely; it was a real day to remember and in the memory bank as one of the special days of my life.

PB: It sounds really fantastic. I’m sure that our listeners will have realised by now that you pack an awful lot into your working day but you are also mum to your 2 lovely girls. How do you balance being a working mum?

SS: With difficulty! So I always like to try to give them breakfast when I’m here. So it’s Saturday and Sunday which is a big thing for us. Everyone gathers round and hubby as well. We might then all go off and do our different bits but for us, breakfast together is important. Monday to Friday when I’m at home, I absolutely do that as well. We eat lunch and dinner together at the weekend as well. I think for me that my Monday to Friday is hectic and it’s very difficult to try and balance. If I’m at home then I will always sit with them to make sure that they are okay. Once a week I have to stay away so I don’t get to see them but we might Skype or talk and make sure they’re okay. I’m incredibly lucky in that I have an infrastructure around me to support everything I need to do. So my parents – their grandparents – are amazing and live over the road from us and the girls have their own bedrooms there so it’s kind of a second home. When they’re not here, they stay with my parents which is fantastic. My husband also obviously works full time as well and, because he works a different time zone, he’s up at five in the morning so if I’m not here, they can’t stay here as it’s way too early for any small person to be waking up. I think what it does is that because I work very long (and hard – I’ll hold my hands up) hours during the week, it means that there is nowhere else I’d rather be at the weekend than here. When we have time, we have real quality time together. As I said, it was my parents 50th wedding anniversary this weekend and the girls and I baked cakes in the morning and we decorated them really badly as it turns out that this isn’t my forte. I just make sure that the time we have together is precious time and we do really sensible things. When we go away on holiday, that’s absolutely our time as well. Although every now and again I will have to do something for work, it’s a couple of hours in the morning and the rest of the day is absolutely their time.

PB: I’m tired already just listening to that so when you do get time to relax, how do you spend that time?

SS: Well every day, I take an hour to myself and every day between 5am and 6am I spend an hour exercising. 20 minutes of that is yoga which I do in total silence and I contemplate my moment for the day as to what is going to happen. Interestingly on the gender, I was talking to a gentle man who said sometimes he sits and thinks and sometimes he just sits. I think this is possibly the 2nd book in me is that I don’t think women ever just sit. Even when I’m doing yoga, I’m consciously running through what the day holds and what I’m going to do. I don’t think I ever just really tune out. Whether that is a gender thing, I don’t know – we’ll have to ask the listeners. Can women just sit or are we constantly mulling things over. After my yoga, I’ll either run or cycle and I’m like a caged tiger if I don’t do that. That hour every day – and I do mean 365 days a year including Christmas Day and New Year’s Day unless I’m really poorly and taken to my bed, I couldn’t live without it. That is my ‘me time’ and where I do it first thing in the morning and focus on what is going to happen in the day, get some energy out and it’s off to work.

PB: Susannah – it’s been a great pleasure to spend this time with you. We wish you every success as you lead DSA and thank you!

SS: Thank you Paul

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